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In re Florida Registered Paralegal Program
SC06-1622
>> GOOD MORNING.
GOOD MORNING.
.
>> LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THE
SUPREME COURT OF FLORIDA.
PLEASE BE SEATED.
GOOD MORNING, WELCOME TO THE
FLOIDA SUPREME COURT.
THE ARGUMENTS FOR MONDAY APRIL
16,THE FIRST CASE ON OUR
CALENDAR THIS MORNING, THE
AMENDMENTSPRIL 16TH,THE FIRST CASE ON
OUR CALENDAR THIS MORNING, THE
AMENDMENTS TO THE RULES OF
REGULATING THE FLORIDA BAR THE
PARALLEL O PARALEGAL PROGRAM.
>> READY TO PROCEED.
>> YES YOUR HONOR.
>> GOOD MORNING MAY IT PLEASE
THE COURT.
MY NAME IS ROSS GOODMAN WITH
ME DPLOIRSIO HOLCOMB FROM THE
FLORIDA BAR OF COURSE, HANK
COX THE PRESIDENT OF THE
FLORIDA BAR ALSO JIM DIXON WHO
WILL BE SPEAKING AS WELL, THIS
MORNING ON BEHALF OF THE
PROPONENTS FOR THE RULE.
LET ME GO A LITTLE BIT INTO
THE BACKGROUND HISTORY OF THIS
RULE THE PARALEGALS OF THE
STATECH FLORIDA REPRESENTED BY
ORGANIZATION BAFA, WHICH IS
THE FLORIDA ASSOCIATION OF
PARALEGAL ASSOCIATIONS, CAME
TO THE FLORIDA BAR, AND SOUGHT
SOME FORM OF REGULATION FOR
PARALEGALS IN THE STATE OF
FLORIDA.
FOR WHATEVER REASON, THAT
DIDN'T -- COME TO FRUITION,
AND THE --
>> -- JUST -- STARTING AT THAT
POINT, WHAT WAS THE PERCEIVED,
REASON FOR THE REGULATION?
WAS IT TO INCREASE THE STATUS
OF THE PARALEGAL THAT WOULD
GET THAT CERTIFICATION?
OR WAS THERE AN ASPECT OF
PROTECTION OF THE PUBLIC, IT
IS MY UNDERSTANDING ALL THE
PARALEGALS BEING REGULATED
WOULD BE UNDER THE --
>> THREE THINGS THREE
PRINCIPAL GOALS THE TWO THAT
YOU JUST MENTIONED WHICH IS
RAISING THE PROFESSIONALISM SF
PARALEGALS AND RECOGNIZE$$!!!!ING
THAT THEY ARE PROFESSION, AS
WELL AS PROVIDESING --
PERFORMEDING -- PROVIDING
PROTECTION FOR THE PUBLIC THAT
THEY KNOW THERE IS A STANDARD
QUALITY THEY ARE GOING BY BUT
AS WELL TO SERVE THE LAWYERS
OF THE STATE OF FLORIDA, BY
SETTING STANDARDS, AND BY
HAVING REVIEW AND DISCIPLINARY
PROCEDURES AVAILABLE SO THAT
THE PARALEGALS THAT ARE ON THE
STATE OF FLORIDA THE LAWYERS
COULD BE RELY UPON THEM SINCE
THEY DO PUT SO MUCH AUTHORITY
IN THEIR HANDS THESE DAYS.
>> THEN AGAIN, BUT THE PROGRAM
AS YOU'VE SAID IS A VOLUNTEER
ONE -- VOLUNTARY ONE THE
PARALEGALS!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PARALEGALS, ARE NOT WORKING --
LIKE IN A SEPARATE --
>> NO, WE ARE NOT SETTING UP
SEPARATE PARALEGALS NOT
ESTABLISHING A STOREFRONT
PARALEGAL SHOP.
WE ARE NOT DEALING WITH THE
ISSUE OF UNLICENSED PRACTICE
OF LAW.
BUT IT IS A VOLUNTARY PROGRAM,
WHERE IT IS A TWO-TIERED
PROGRAM THE ONE HE REASON WHY
WE ARE DOING IT THIS WAY IT IS
A FIRST STEP WE ADOPT KNOW HOW
MANY PARTICIPATE ILLEGALS ARE
GOING TO COME FORWARD AND WANT
THIS REGULATION WE DON'T KNOW
IF IT IS GOING TO BE 10,000
PARALEGALS!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PARALEGALS, IN WHICH CASE, IT
WON'T BE -- A SIGN TO THE BAR
AS WELL AS THE COURT THAT
MAYBE WE WOULD CONSIDER TAKE
THE NEXT STEP WHICH WOULD BE
MANDATORY REGULATION --
>> BUT YOU DO -- IS THERE A
QUESTION HERE, AS TO WHETHER
OR NOT THE BAR AND THIS COURT
REALLY HAS THE AUTHORITY TO
REGULATE PARALEGALS?
IT IS DISCONCERT TO GO ME THAT
WE WOULD HAVE A GROUP OF
PARALEGALS WHO HAVE TO -- IF
THEY WANT TO BE FLORIDA
REGISTERED PARALEGALS, TO GO
THROUGH A PROCESS AND HAVE
THIS EDUCATION AND ALL OF
THIS, AND THEN WE HAVE ANOTHER
GROUP OF PEOPLE, WHO -- AND
USE THE SAME TERM "PARALEGALOU!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"PARALEGALOUOI AND NOT HAVE TO
GO THROUGH THIS PROCESS IS THE
BAR CONCERNED ABOUT WHEN OR
NOT, IT REALLY HAS
JURISDICTION TO DO THIS KIND
OF SEEM -- SCHEME.
>> AT THIS POINT NO THREE
REASONS FOR THAT REASON NUMBER
ONE WE COULD ARGUE THAT THE
COURT HAS POWER TO REGULATE
PARALEGALS BECAUSE PARALEGALS
DO DO SUBCONSTANTIVE ILLEGAL
WORK ALL BE IT UNDER
SUPERVISION OF LAWYERS,
SECONDLY WE COULD ALWAYS
GETTING ENABLING LEGACY IF WE
NEEDED -- LEGACY SO WE COULD
MAKE SURE THERE IS THAT CHARGE
BECAUSE OF VOLUNTARY NATURE OF
THE PROGRAM AS PRESENTED IN
RULE 20.
ANYBODY WHO IS COMING BEFORE,
THAT PROGRAM, IS SUBMITTING
THEMSELVES ESSENTIALLY TO THE
JURISDICTION OF THE COURT, AND
--
>> IS THAT WHY YOU DID IT AS
TWO-TIERED PROCESS AS JUSTICE
CONVINCE' QUESTION WHY A
TWO-TIERED PROCESS WHY NOT
REQUIRE EVERY PARALEGAL TO GET
CERTIFIED!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CERTIFIED?
IS IT BECAUSE OF THE JURL
CONCERNS OR JURISDICTION
DICTIONAL CONCERNS OR SOME
OTHER REASON.
>> THERE IS DEBATE IN THE
PUBLIC WHEN OR NOT THERE IS A
NEED FOR CERTIFICATION
PARALEGALS AND REGULATION OF
PARALEGALS WHETHER WE WILL
ACHEEFRN THE END IT I GUESS
DESIGNED TO ACHIEVE.
>> MAYBE THAT GOES BACK TO
WHAT MY FIRST QUESTION IS I'M
TRYING TO SEE WHAT WAS THE
WHAT IS THE PROBLEM, OUT
THERE?
I MEAN SO MANY OF US HAVE BEEN
A WHILE SINCE WE'VE BEEN
PRACTICING LAW.
WHAT IT IS THE PROBLEM OUT
THERE THAT THIS PROGRAM, WHICH
IS A VERY!!$$!!!!!!YOU KNOW A VERY
COMPLICATED DISCIPLINARY
SCHEME POTENTIALLY, THAT IT IS
DESIGNED TO ADDRESS, IF IT IS
NOT ADDRESSING IT FOR
EVERYBODY?
>> WELL, IT IS GOING TO
RECOGNIZE THE PROFESSIONALISM
OF PARALEGALS AS I SAID
PROTECT CONSUMERS, BECAUSE
CONSUMERS GOING TO KNOW THAT
SOMEONE WHO CALLS HIMSELF A
PARALEGAL!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PARALEGAL, WILL NOT
NECESSARILY HAVE THE
QUALIFICATIONS OF A FLORIDA
REGISTERED PARALEGAL ONCE THEY
GET THAT TITLE FLORIDA
REGISTERED PARALEGAL YOU KNOW
THEY HAVE MINIMUM EDUCATIONAL
EXPERIENCE REQUIREMENTS THAT
THEY HAVE TO DO CLE, TEN HOURS
A YEAR, OVER THE PROCESS, AND
THAT THEY ARE SUBJECT TO
DISPLIN.
>> WHAT WOULD MAKE ANY
PARALEGAL DECIDE, TO
PARTICIPATE IN THIS PROGRAM
WHEN THEY CAN DO THE SAME
WORK -- POSSIBLY MAKE THE SAME
KIND OF SALARY AND NOT HAVE TO
GO THROUGH THIS PROCESS?
WHAT WOULD BE ONE'S INCENTIVE
TO DO THIS.
>> BECAUSE IT RAISES THEIR
LEVEL OF -- RAISES THE
PERCEPTION OF THEIR
QUALIFICATION KWAS OUT THERE
IN THE MARKET IT MAKES THEM
ESSENTIALLY MORE MARKETABLE --
>> WOULD REALLY KNOW?
>> I THINK THE CONSUMING
ILLEGAL PUBLIC IS GOING TO
KNOW I THINK THE LAWYERS OF
THE FLORIDA BAR ARE GOING TO
KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A
REGISTERED PARALEGAL AND --
>> SOUNDS SOMETHING LOO --
THAT WILL BE A MARKETING TOOL
FOR THE PARALLEL TO NEGOTIATE
WITH A LAWYER TO GET INCREASED
COMPENSATION!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
COMPENSATION, IS IT AKIN TO
LIKE A BOARD WOULD YOU
ANALOGIZE THIS TO BOARD
CERTIFICATION, FOR LAWYERS?
YOU KNOW, AGAIN, SO WE GET
BACK TO WHAT THIS WHOLE
PROGRAM IS, IT IS SOMETHING,
THAT WILL BE NICE TO HAVE, BUT
YOU DON'T NEED TO HAVE IT.
AND THAT IS WHAT THIS --
BOTTOM LINE OF WHAT IT IS?
.
>> I AGREE WITH HALF OF YOUR
STATEMENT IT IS CERTAINLY
SOMETHING NICE TO HAVE WEATHER
THERE IS A NEED FOR IT, THAT
QUESTION HASN'T NECESSARILY
BEEN ANSWERED, I THINK, THERE
OTHER ARGUMENTS THAT THERE IS
A NEED FOR CERTIFICATION OR
REGISTRATION OF PARALEGALS, IT
IS A QUESTION THAT HAS BEEN
BEFORE 15 -- STATES SO FAR IN
THE UNITED STATES AS FAR AS MY
RESEARCH HAS SHOWN, ARE YOU
ABLE TO.
>> ARE YOU GOLF BALL GIVES
BRIEF THUMBNAIL SKECH WHAT
ORGANIZATIONAL ACTIVITY HAS
ALREADY TAKEN PLACE, IN THIS
PROFESSION!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PROFESSION?
THAT IS, WHAT -- HOW HAVE PAR
ILLEGALS THEMSELVESES IF THEY
HAVE, ORGANIZED THEMSELVES, ON
EITHER NATIONAL, STATE OR
LOCAL BASIS, COULD YOU ADD TO
THAT, ANY ROLE THAT THOSE
ORGANIZATIONS HAVE PLAYED, IN
THE IMPETUS FOR THIS
REGULATION?
>> THERE ARE TWO NATIONAL
ORGANIZATION!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ORGANIZATIONS, NATIONAL
FEDERATION PARALEGAL
ASSOCIATION!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ASSOCIATIONS, WHICH
ADMINISTERS A NATIONAL TEST
THE CASE EXAM THERE IS NOW
NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF LEGAL
ASSISTANTS, THEY HAVE THEIR
OWN EXAM CALLED A CLA,
CERTIFIED LEGAL ASSISTANT TWO
NATIONAL PROGRAMS IN THE STATE
OF FLORIDA, YOU HAVE NORTH
FLORIDA PARALEGAL ASSOCIATION,
SOUTH FLORIDA PARALEGAL
ASSOCIATION NORTHWEST FLORIDA
PARALEGAL ASSOCIATION, THOSE
ASSOCIATIONES!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ASSOCIATIONES, GATHER TOGETHER
UNDER UMBRELLA OF BAPAFLORIDA
ASSOCIATION OF PARALEGAL
ASSOCIATION!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ASSOCIATIONS, AND THAT I MAY
HAVE GOTTEN IT WRONG, BUT
CLOSE ENOUGH, IT IS ONE WHO
PUT THE MONEY TOGETHER, TO
HIRE THE LOBBYISTS, WHO GO TO
THE LEGISLATURE TO SEEK
LEGACY -- LEGISLATION THE
PROCESS STARTED IN THE FIRST
PLACE, AND, THEY REPRESENT,
LITERALLY THOUSANDS OF FLORIDA
PARALEGALS IN THE STATE OF
FLORIDA.
THEY ARE THE ONE WHO HAS BEEN
PUSH!!$$!!!!!!
PUSHING FOR THIS REGULATION,
FOR AT LEAST A DECADE.
I MEAN THIS IS NOT SOMETHING
NEW THIS SOMETHING THAT THEY
HAVE BEEN WORKING ON, LONG AND
HARD.
>> AND YOU MENTIONED, IN YOUR
ANSWER TO ZWRIS ANSTEAD THERE
WAS ASSOCIATION OF CERTIFIED
LEGAL ASSISTANTS ALSO ARE
THESE PEOPLE,PEOPLE WHO ARE
DIFFERENT FROM PARALEGALS?
AND --
>> PARALEGALS CAN TAKE AN
EXAMINATION!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
EXAMINATION.
AND THERE ARE TWO NATIONAL
EXAMINGS OUT THERE PACE EXAM
AND CERTIFIED LEGAL ASSISTANTS
GAME -- EXAM AND THAT IS A
VOLUNTARY UNDERTAKING.
SO MUCH AS THE VOLUNTARY
FLORIDA REGISTERED PARALEGAL
WOULD BE.
MY NOTES INDICATE THAT THERE
ARE UPWARDS OF 30 -- 3500,
PARALEGALS WHO HAVE TAKEN THE
CLA EXAM, IN THE NATION, AT
THIS POINT.
THAT WAS I THINK 02 I'M SURE
THE NUMBER IS HIGHER BY NOW.
BUT, THAT IS JUST SHOWS YOU
HOW THE PARALEGALS DO WANT THE
RESPECT OUT THERE TO THE
EXTENT THEY ARE WILLING TO PUT
THEMSELVES THROUGH THIS
VOLUNTARY PROCESS, JUST TO
HAVE THAT -- THAT -- THOSE
INITIALS AT END OF THE THEIR
NAMES.
>> WELL I IN ADDITION THE -- I
UNDERSTOOD THE FIRST
PREFERENCE TO HAVE
REGISTRATION THEN THERE WOULD
HAVE BEEN A MANDATORY
REGULATION WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN
THROUGH THE COURT OUR THE
FLORIDA BAR.
>> ACTUALLY THE FIRST PRERNS
WAS THE FLORIDA BAR BUT
BECAUSE THERE WAS THE FLORIDA
BAR -- PARALLEL ASSOCIATION
WEREN'T ABLE TO REACH
AGREEMENT THE LEGAL
ASSOCIATION WENT TO THE
LEGISLATURE!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LEGISLATURE.
>> THIS ONE OTHER THAN THE
THAT THERE IS A COUPLE OF
ORGANIZATION!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ORGANIZATIONS, THAT THEY WANT
MANDATORY REGULATION, IT LOOKS
LIKE THE PROCESS THAT YOU WENT
THROUGH, WAS A VERY
COMPREHENSIVE PROCESS, GETTING
BUY-IN FROM ALL THE GROUPS
THAT WERE IN THERE
>> YES, MA'AM THE CAN HE THAT
PUT TOGETHER, THE -- THE
PUBLIC HEARING THAT WE HAVE 31
PEOPLE VOLUNTARY CAME TO TAMPA
ON THEIR OWN, TO SPEAK AND A
LOT OF THOSE SPEAKERS WANTED
MOND TRIE REGULATION, WANT!!$$!!!!!!
WANTED -- MANDATORY
REGULATION, WANTED THE COURT
TO COME UP WITH A RULE THAT
SAYS, TO BE NAMED A PARALEGAL
YOU CAN USE TITLE PARALEGAL
YOU HAVE TO PASS CERTAIN
REQUIREMENTS!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
REQUIREMENTS, AND, WE BELIEVE
AT THIS POINT, THAT WHILE THAT
IS THAT MAY BE SOMETHING, IN
THE FUTURE, RIGHT NOW, THE
FIRST STEP IS LET'S GO WITH
THIS VOLUNTARY PROGRAM, LET'S
SEE HOW IT WORKS LET'S GET THE
INFRASTRUCTURE, SET UP, AND
THEN SEE IF THERE IS A NEED HE
AND VALUE TO DOING IT.
>> IS IT THE INTENT OF THE BAR
THAT THIS WILL BE
SELF-SUSTAINING IN OTHER WORDS!!$$!!!!!!!!
WORDS, THAT THE FEES, THAT
WILL BE PAID IN, WILL TAKE
CARE OF WHATEVER ADDITIONAL
STAFF.
>> YES, MA'AM APPLICATION FEE
AND ANNUAL FEE, THERE WILL BE
NO NET COST, TO THE BAR OF THE
STATE --
>> ARE YOU GOING TO BE SPEAK!!$$!!!!!!!!
SPEAKING ABOUT THE
DISCIPLINARY PART OF THIS?
OR IS THAT -- ARE YOU GOING TO!!$$!!
TO --
>> YES.
>> MY CONCERN ON THAT I'M
SORRY YOU DO WANT TO.
>> YEAH I HAD A QUESTION ON
THE DISBARRED ATTORNEYS,
SUSPENDED ATTORNEYS.
THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BE
REGISTER!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
REGISTERED, PARALEGALS, OR ARE
THEY ALLOWED TO DO ANY
PARALEGAL WORK AT ALL.
>> THE FIRST TIER PARALEGAL
ANYBODY CAN BE A PETITIONER
ILLEGAL YES A DISBARRED
ATTORNEY CAN WORK AS PARALEGAL
UNDER RIGHT SUPERVISION --
DIRECT SUPERVISION OF THE
LAWYER BUT WE DON'T THINK IF
THEY HAVE BEEN DISBARRED WE
SHOULD BE ABLE TO RAISE THEM
TO THE LEVEL OF BEING A
REGISTERED FLORIDA PARALEGAL.
>> SUSPEND LAWYER ONCE LAWYER
ABLE TO PRACTICE LAW AGAIN
ONCE REINSTATED HE CAN ALSO
BECOME A REGISTERED PARALEGAL?
>> I'M SURE HE COULD IF HE
WANTED TO, OR SHE COULD IF SHE
WANTED TO.
BUT --
>> YEAH BUT WOULD IT BE I
GUESS NO REASON FOR THAT.
>> IT WOULD BE A LITTLE REDUPD
DIDDANT!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!
DIDDANT.
>> REDUNDANT.
>> I GUESS WE O COULD PROBABLY
PICK APART SOMEBODY WHO HAS --
BEEN, DISPLINED 20 YEARS AGO,
THAT CANNED -- CAN'T BECOME
ONE, THAT IS WHY I ASKED ABOUT
THE PROCESS OF BUY-IN, AS
EVERYBODY AGREED TO THIS BUT
ON THE DISCIPLINARY PROCESS I
HAD A COUPLE SMALL QUESTIONS,
ONE WAS, YOU DO INTEND TO
ASSESS COSTS TO OF THE PROCESS
THAT IS A BIG ISSUE FOR OUR
DISPLIN I DIDN'T SEE ANY
PROVISION, IN THE -- IN THE
RULES!!$$!!!!!!!!
RULES, FOR.
>> I THINK WE ARE PROJECTING
REGISTERTRATION FEES
EXAMINATION FEES WILL BE
SUFFICIENT TO PAY THOSE COSTS.
>> IS THERE DIDN'T LOOK LIKE,
AND I MAY HAVE MISSED IT THAT
THE PERSON WHO HAD A COMPLAINT
AGAINST HIM OR HER, WOULD HAVE
TELL YOU RIGHT TO -- ACTUAL
RIGHT TO EVEN SUMMIT WRITTEN
TESTIMONY OR VERBAL TESTIMONY,
NOR WERE A -- NOR WAS THERE AN
ABSOLUTE REQUIREMENT THAT THE
PROCEEDINGS BE TRANSCRIBED OR
AN ABILITY OF THE PERSON WHO
IS AGAIN HAVING THE DISPLIN,
SOUGHT, TO BE ABLE TO APPEAL
THAT TO THE BOARD OF GOVERNORS
AM I CORRECT ABOUT THOSE THREE
OR FOUR THINGS, THAT IS NO
RIGHT TO PRESENT TESTIMONY,
EITHER AT LEAST IN THE RULES,
IN WRITING, OR ORALLY, NO
RIGHT TO HAVE A TRANSCRIPT,
AND NO RIGHT TO HAVE IT REVIEW!!$$!!!!!!!!!!
REVIEWED BY THE BOARD OF
GOVERNORS?
.
>> I THINK THE PROCEDURAL
RULES ARE YET TO BE WRITTEN,
BUT THERE IS A RIGHT OF REVIEW
TO BOTH THE DESIGNATED REVIEW!!$$!!!!!!!!!!
REVIEWER, AND TO THE BOARD OF
GOVERNORS!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GOVERNORS.
AND I SEE THAT MY TIME IS A
LITTLE PAST I WANTED TO LEAVE
A FEW MOMENTS FOR MR. DIXON TO
SPEAK.
>> HOWEVER, THERE IS PROVISION
UNDER 28.4B, THAT DOES ALLOW
THE TAKING OF TVLT BEFORE THE
DISTRICT COMMITTEES SO THAT
THANK YOU.
>> -- INVESTIGATIVE STAGE OF
IT?
>> YES, MA'AM.
>> BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO ME,
THAT THERE -- AS -- JUSTICE
PARENT -- PREVENTSE ASKED YOU
THERE -- PARENTSRY ASKED YOU
DOESN'T SEEM ANY RIGHT OF
PARALEGAL TO ASK FOR ANY KIND
OF FORMAL HEARING ON WHATEVER,
CHARGES!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!
CHARGES, ARE BROUGHT, THAT
THIS REALLY, INVESTIGATIVE
STAGE WHERE, YOU HAVE THOSE
RIGHTS AND THE RIGHTS TO GET!!$$!!!!
GET --
>> WHICH IS, ALMOST MIRROR
IMAGE OF THE GRIEVANCE
COMMITTEE OF THE GRIEVANCE
PROCEDURE THAT EXISTS NOW FOR
LAWYERS.
>> WELLU YOU HAVE -- YOU HAVE
AN INVESTIGATIVE STAGE BUT YOU
ALSO HAVE A STAGE, WHERE THE
PERSON ACTUALLY HAS A FORMAL
HEARING, AND THEY PRESENT,
TESTIMONY.
>> THAT IS TRUE.
>> -- ON THEIR OWN BEHALF.
>> THAT IS TRUE WE DON'T HAVE
THAT, THAT FORMAL PROCEDURE,
LET'S IN PROPOSED STATUTES.
>> SINCE AANALOGIZE TO GO
LAWYER CERTIFICATION HOW DO WE
DO IT IN DECERTIFYING A LAWYER
FOR SOME KIND OF MISCONDUCT OR
FAILURE TO ADHERE TO THE
REQUIREMENTS DO WE GIVE THEM,
AN OPPORTUNITY FOR LIVE
TESTIMONY?
>> I DON'T BELIEVE.
SO YOUR HONOR.
I DON'T BELIEVE SO, IN THE
CERTIFICATION AREA.
>> BUT THERE IS ALSO NOT THIS
WHOLE HEARING PROCESS EITHER,
I THINK IT IS PRETTY INFORMAL,
PROCESS.
I MEAN THAT IS THAT IS --
>> -- THE BOARD OF LEGAL
SPECIALIZATION!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SPECIALIZATION.
>> THEY DO IT AND IT IS A VERY
HE --
>> THERE CAN BE APPEAL TO THIS
COURT.
>> CERTAINLY.
>> THANK YOU.
>> OKAY, MR. DIXON, A COUPLE !!$$!!!!!!!!!!JIM DIXON PART
NERP WITH RUED AND MCCLOSKEYER
HAVE ON BEHALF OF THE
PARALEGAL ASSOCIATION OF
FLORIDA, REPRESENTATIVES OF
PARALEGAL ASSOCIATIONS
THROUGHOUT THE I START HERE
BEHIND ME TODAY.
WE STRONGLY SUPPORT THE $$BAR'S
PROGRAM.
AND99ESSENTIALLY THE QUESTION
WAS ASKED JUSTICE QUINCE, WHY
WOULD A PARALEGAL WANT TO GO
THROUGH THIS PROCESS THE SHORT
ANSWER IS, PARALEGALS VIEW
THEMSELVES AS PROFESSIONALS,
MOST PARALEGALS WANT TO
IMPROVING THEIR QUALITY AND
WANT TO ESSENTIALLY ESTABLISH
THE SKILLS THAT THEY HAVE.
THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A
CERTIFIED PARALEGAL, A
PARALEGAL!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PARALEGAL, THAT HAS UNDERTAKEN!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
UNDERTAKEN, TRAINING, A
PARALEGAL THAT HAS UNDERTAKEN
EXAMINATION!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
EXAMINATIONS, AND SOMEONE WHO
IS SIMPLY BEEN PROMOTED AS A
SECRETARY IS SIGNIFICANT,
UNFORTUNATELY FLORIDA ALLOWS
IN MANY CASES BOTH TO AWARE
THE HAT OF PARALEGAL IN TERMS
OF PURPOSE OF BILLINGS AND
MANY LAW FIRMS WILL -- THEIR
SECRETARIES PARSE ILLEGAL IN
ONE FORM OR ANOTHER.
>> A LAWYER JUST -- ASSISTANT!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ASSISTANT --
>> ESHL THAT IS CORRECT.
>> CAN STILL DO THAT UNDER
THIS.
>> HE THEY CAN STILL DO THAT
THAT WOULD BE TIER TWO THE
SHORT ANSWER HERE IS THIS IS A
GOOD FIRST STEP.
WOULD -- THE PARALEGAL
ASSOCIATION PREFER MANDATORY?
THAT WAS THE ORIGINALLY THE
CONCEPT THAT WAS PRESENTED,
AFTER HEARING THROUGHOUT THE
STATE, HOWEVER, THE
REALITYINGS WERE A WE NEED TO
DO THIS IN A TWO-STEP PROCESS,
CREATE THE PROGRAMS, SHOW THE
VERIFICATIONS ET CETERA.
IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA, THERE
IS ALREADY, OVER 3600
CERTIFIED PARALEGALS, THAT
HAVE GONE THROUGH THE99NATIONAL
-- CERTIFICATION PROCESS.
WE HAVE, MANY THAT WITHOUT ANY
INCENTIVE HAVE GONE THROUGH
THIS PROGRAM.
WE WILL FIND MANY MORE,
WILLING TO DO THIS TIERED
PROGRAM ONCE THIS STAEBDZ.
-- ESTABLISHED THE QUESTION
WAS ASKED WHAT JURISDICTION
DOES THE BAR HAVE IT IS NOT
THE $$BAR'S JURISDICTION IT IS
THIS $$COURT'S JURISDICTION,
THIS COURT CLEARLY HAS
JURISDICTION TO DEAL WITH
PARALEGALS!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PARALEGALS.
>> UNDER WHAT --
>> ESSENTIALLY UNDER ARTICLE,
FIVE SECTION 15.
IN TERMS OF THE PERSONS
DEALING WITH THE PRACTICE OF
LAW.
THE OPPONENTS.
>> ACTUALLY THAT SPEAKS TO THE
ADMISSION TO THE PRACTICE OF
LAW, THEN TRADITIONALLY THE
ADMISSION TO THE PRAF LAW
LIMITED TO -- PERSONS WHO
COULD APPEAR AT THE BAR?
>> THIS COURT IN UNLICENSED
PRACTICE OF LAW REGULATIONS
HAS SPECIFICALLY DEFINED A
PARALEGAL AND LEGAL ASSISTANT
AS A PERSON THAT PROVIDES
SUBSTANTIVE LEGAL SERVICES
UNDER SUPERVISION OF A LAWYER
SO YOU ARE CLEARLY RECOGNIZING
THAT SUBSTANTIVE YOU HAVE BEEN
LEGAL SERVICES ARE BEING
PROVIDED -- PROVIDED BY PAR
ILLEGALS!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ILLEGALS, YOU CAN NOT
SEPARATE, THE ROLE OF A
PARALLEL AND THE SUPERVISION
OF AN ATTORNEY, IN THAT
PROCESS.
THE ARGUMENT IS, THAT THIS
COURT HAS JURISDICTION OVER
PAR ILLEGALS, WHO PRACTICE LAW
WITHOUT THE SUPERVISION OF A
LAWYER, BUT SOMEHOW DOESN'T
HAVE JURISDICTION TO DEAL WITH
THE QUESTION KWH THEY ARE
ACTING UNDER THE SUPERVISION
OF A LAWYER.
THAT MAKES NO SENSE.
THAT KIND OF AN ARGUMENT IS
TOTALLY ILLOGICAL THIS COURT
HAS JURISDICTION OVER THE
PRACTICE OF LAW, AND IN
TODAY'S MARKETPLACE,
PARALEGALS ARE PERFORMEDING
DIRECT ILLEGAL SERVICES, ALL
-- DIRECT LEGAL SERVICES UNDER
SUPERVISION OF A LAWYER.
>> YOUR ARGUMENT IS THAT
PARALEGALS ARE PRACTICING LAW.
>> I AM UNDER THE SUPERVISION
OF A LAWYER THAT IS TRUE, AND
THE UNLICENSED PRACTICE OF LAW
RULE, SPECIFICALLY SAYING ITS
STA -- STATES THAT
ACKNOWLEDGES THAT.
>> SUBSESSION STATES, THOSE
PERSONS!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!
PERSONS, PROVIDING SUBSTANTIVE
LEGAL SERVICES,WE HAVE
RECOGNIZED THAT.
THE LEGISLATURE HAS -- ITSELF
RECOGNIZED THAT IN RULE 57104.
>> BUT YOU UNI LIKE PEOPLE
PRACTICING LAW NOT UNDER THE
SUPERVISION OF AN ATTORNEY, IF
YOU ARE A PARALEGAL,
PRACTICING UNDER THE
SUPERVISION OF AN ATTORNEY THE
ATTORNEY REALLY IS HELD
ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHATEVER THE
PARALLEL DOES.
>> YOUR HONOR THAT IS CORRECT.
THE LAWYER DOES HAVE
RESPONSIBILITY THE LAWYER CAN
BE SANCTIONED IN RULE
SPECIFICALLY STATE THAT A
LAWYER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE
ACTIONS OF ITS PARALLELS BUT
WE ARE CLOSING THE SISHLG WHY
WOULD YOU NOT ALSO HOLD THE
PERSON PERFORMING THE ACT THE
PERSON THAT IS DEALING DIRECT!!$$!!!!!!!!!!
DIRECTLY WITH THE PUBLIC, TO
HAVE CERTAIN RESPONSIBILITIES?
THAT IS THE -- WHAT WE ARE
ATTEMPTING TO DO THROUGH THIS
PROCESS, TO CLOSE THAT CIRCLE.
THAT IS THE ISSUE OTHER
DEALING UTH.
>> -- CLOSING RIGHT?
ALL YOU LOSE IS CERTIFICATION
DOUBT LOSE THE ABILITY TO BE A
PARALLEL!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PARALLEL?
>> THAT IS -- PARALEGAL THAT
IS CORRECT COULD THIS BE TOUGH!!$$!!!!!!!!
TOUGHER YES IS THIS A FIRST
GOOD STEP?
YES, YOUR HONOR I BELIEVE MY
TIME IS UP.
THANK YOU.
>> ALL RIGHT.
>> GOOD MORNING, IF IT PLEASE
THE COURT.
CHIEF JUSTICE, MEMBERS OF THE
COURT.
MY NAME IS TENNAT KUKEC I
REPRESENT THE SOUTH FLORIDA
PARALEGALS ASSOCIATION, WITH
ME, AT THE TABLE, MISS LISA
VESSEL, MR. MARK WORKMAN, THEY
ARE THE AND THE IMMEDIATE PAST
OF THE SOUTH FLORIDA PARALEGAL
ASSOCIATION RESPECTIVELY.
>> NOW WHAT IS YOUR --
CONSTITUENCY?
AND HOW DOES IT DIFFER FROM
MR. -- DIXON?
>> MY CLIENT.
>> -- ACTUALLY REPRESENT?
>> IT IS AN ASSOCIATION OF
PARALEGAL PROFESSIONAL
PARALEGALS!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PARALEGALS, AND SOUTH FLORIDA.
HAS 200 MEMBERS,THEY ARE
CONSTITUENTS MEMBER OF THE
GROUP, THAT IS STATEWIDE.
BUT, THEY ARE SEPARATE GROUP,
AND I BELIEVE AMONG THE
HIGHEST TRAINED AND MOST
PROFESSIONAL PARALEGALS IN THE
STATE CERTAINLY PROBABLY IN
THE NATION.
SO --
>> SO APPARENTLY THERE IS SOME
INTERNAL DISAGREEMENT AMONG
PARALEGALS!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PARALEGALS, WHETHER THIS IS
NECESSARY OR WHETHER IT HAS
GONE TOO FAR?
ONE OF THOSE?
>> THAT'S ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.
>> WHAT IS YOUR POSITION?
WE DON'T NEED IT AT ALL OR WE
ARE NOT GOING FAR ENOUGH.
>> WE ARE NOT GOING FAR
ENOUGH.
IT IS CERTAINLY MY POSITION.
LET ME ADDRESS, FIRST, THE
ISSUE OF THAT THE COURT ASKED
US TO ADDRESS, WHICH CONCERNS
THE JURISDICTION.
I THINK THAT THAT IS A VERY
CLOSE, DIFFICULT, IMPORTANT
ISSUE.
NOW, THE -- BAR HAS RESPONDED
AND IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE $$
BAR'S RESPONSE IS SO FAR OFF
POINT ALMOST TRANSAPPARENTLY
SO THAT THE PAR MAY ALLOW,
WANT TO WIN THIS, ISSUE, BY
LOSING ON THAT PARTICULAR
ISSUE.
WHEN THE OVERALL SEEM -- THE
BAR IN ESSENCE HAD TO BE
BROUGHT PICKING -- KICKING AND
DRAG TO GO THE TABLE.
IT WAS ONLY BECAUSE OF THE
PROPOSED LEGISLATION THAT THE
BAR GOT INVOLVED IN THIS AT
ALL.
P MANY MEMBERS OF THE BAR
DIDN'T DID NOT WANT ANY TYPE
OF REGULATION IN THIS FIELD.
THE $$BAR'S RESPONSE IN ESSENCE
IS TWO FOLD.
FIRST THEY TOLD THE COURT THAT
THE COURT HAS ASKED THE WRONG
QUESTION.
THAT THIS IS NOT REGULATION AS
THE COURT PUT THE QUESTION
WHETHER THE REGULATION OF
PARALEGALS IS WITHIN THE
COURT'S JURISDICTION.
THEY SAY THIS IS NOT
REGULATION.
WELL IT SEEMS, TO BE A VERY
ODD RESPONSE GIVEN THAT THE
INITIAL PETITION FILED BEFORE
THE COURT ASKED ITS QUESTION
REFERRED TO THIS AS
REGULATION.
THE PROPOSAL -- IS A PETITION
TO AMEND THE RULES REGULATING
THE BAR, AND THE STRIKING AN
AGREEMENT WITH THE LEGISLATIVE
REPRESENTATIVES!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
REPRESENTATIVES, WHO HAD
PROPOSED THE INITIAL BILL THE
BAR HAD -- LET ME GET THE --
PAGE TWO OF THE BAR'S PETITION
THE AGREEMENT THAT THEY HAD
WITH THE LETTINGLATORS WAS TO
PROPOSE A REGULATORY SCHEME,
IN DOING SO, THEY FORMED, A
COMMITTEE, THE CAN HE IS THE
SPECIAL -- COMMITTEE THE
SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO STUDY
PARALEGAL REGULATION SO FOR
THE BAR NOW TO CLAIM THAT THIS
IS NOT REGULATION -- SEEMS TO
ME, TO BE ALMOST AN EFFORT TO
LOSE ON PURPOSE.
>> LET'S ASSUME FOR THE MOMENT
IT IS REGULATION.
THE $$BAR'S RESPONSE IS "WELL,
RIGHT NOW, YOU ARE IT IS A
PARALEGAL IS NOT WORKING UNDER
SUPERVISION OF AN ATTORNEY
THAT IS UNLIE SENSDZ PRACTICE
OF LAW YOUR REGULATE$$!!!!ING THAT IT
WOULD BE A -- ILLOGICAL NOT TO
REGULATE A PARALEGAL WORKING
UNDER SUPERVISION AFTERNOON
ATTORNEY. "
WHAT IT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO
THAT ARGUMENT.
>> I DON'T REALLY TAKE ISSUE
WITH THAT.
I -- I BELIEVE -- MY CLIENTS,
WISH TO BE REGULATED.
THEIR PREFERENCE WOULD BE TO
BE REGULATED, BY THIS COURT.
UNFORTUNATELY!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
UNFORTUNATELY, THE BAR HAS
SHOWN NEITHER THE WILL NOR THE
DESIRE TO FOLLOW THROUGH WITH
MEANINGFUL REGULATION, IN THIS
AREA!!$$!!!!!!
AREA.
>> I COULD JUST ON THIS, AND
AGAIN IN TRYING AND I
APPRECIATE THAT THIS IS AN
ATTEMPT TO YOU KNOW, ELEVATE
THE TO PROMOTE PROFESSIONALISM
DEVELOP PROFESSIONAL
COMPETENCE!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
COMPETENCE, AND SEEM LIKE THEY
ARE ALL GOOD THINGS.
BUT IF A PARALEGAL MUST WORK
UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF AN
ATTORNEY, AS IT IS DEFINED IN
THE AUTHORIZED PRAF LAW RULES,
IS NOT THIS MORE AKIN, TO
SOMETHING LIKE AGAIN BOARD
CERTIFICATION FOR LAWYERS, OR
-- YOU KNOW AN ADDITIONAL
TITLE, BECAUSE IT SEEMS THAT
THE PUBLIC IS PROTECTED
BECAUSE WHOEVER IS WORKING IN
THIS CAPACITY MUST BE DOING IT
UNDER -- $$LAWYER'S SUPERVISION
AND SO I'M TRYING TO
UNDERSTAND WHAT A MANDATORY
REGULATION SCHEME OTHER THAN
BRINGING MORE I DON'T WANT TO
USE THE WORD BUREAUCRACY IN A
BAD WAY, BUT MORE REGULATION,
MORE PAPERWORK?
MORE THIS?
FOR THIS COURT, WHAT WOULD BE
THEED A -- ADVANTAGE TO THE
CITIZENS OF THE STATE TO THE
ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE BY A
MANDATORY SYSTEM THAT WAS
UNDER THAT THIS COURT WAS
SUPERVISING!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SUPERVISING?
>> THERE IS A CLEAR PUBLIC
INTEREST, IN HAVING MANDATORY
REGULATION.
THERE IS PUBLIC CONFUSION
RIGHT NOW, AS TO THE
TERMINOLOGY REGARDING
PARALEGAL!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PARALEGAL.
WHEN THIS COURT TOOK UP THE
ISSUE, IN # 002 REGARDING THE
UNLICENSED PRACTICE OF LAW --
THERE WERE STUDIES THAT WERE
CITED TO THE COURT, SHOWING
THAT THERE WERE UP TO 90% OF
THE CITIZENS OF THE STATE WERE
CONFUSED AS TO WHAT THE
TERMINOLOGY "PARALEGAL" AND
"LEGAL ASSISTANT" MEANS, WHAT
IS ABSOLUTELY MISSING FROM THE
BAR PROPOSAL IS ANY LEGITIMATE
REASON ANY POLICY WHATSOEVER
THAT WOULD BE SERVED BY HAVING
A TIER ONE PARALEGAL SYSTEM.
THAT IS UN-- UNREGULATED
PARALLELSING PAR -- PARALEGALS
WHOSE ONLY BASIS TO PRACTICE
IS THAT SOME ATTORNEY SOME!!$$!!!!!!
SOMEWHERE IN THE STATE, FEELS
THAT THEY ARE COMPETENT TO DO
SUBSTANTIVE LEGAL WORK, I
THINK!!$$!!!!!!!!
THINK, THE UNDERLYING PROBLEM
HERE, AND REALLY THE --
PROBLEM WITH.
>> PROBLEM WITH THAT IT SEEMS
TO ME THAT WE -- IN HAVE THIS
PROGRAM, WE RUN A RISK OF
SEPARATING THE RESPONSIBILITY
THAT THE LAWYER IN THE $$
LAWYER'S OFFICE HAS FOR THE
MANAGEMENT OF WHOEVER IS THERE
WORKING, WHETHER IT BE A
PARALLEL!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PARALLEL, OR A -- A PARALEGAL
OR A SECRETARY OR WHOEVER IS
HOLDING THEMSELVES OUT AS
BEING ABLE TO PROVIDE AN
ASSISTANT TO A CLIENT.
AND AS -- IT SEEMS TO ME, THAT
THE WHOLE SCHEME OF LAWYER
REGULATION IS AT THIS COURT BY
REASON OF THAT LAWYER BEING A
MEMBER OF THE FLORIDA BAR IS
GOING TO HOLD THAT LAWYER
RESPONSIBLE FOR WHATEVER
HAPPENS IN THAT OFFICE.
AND I'M CONCERNED THAT BY
REGULATING SOMEBODY $$ELSE'S IN
THAT OFFICE AS IF THEY WERE AN
INDEPENDENT CONTRACTOR THAT WE
ARE DIMINISHING THE
RESPONSIBILITY THAT THE LAWYER
HAS.
>> YOUR HONOR I DO NOT BELIEVE
THAT IT WOULD DIMINISH THE
RESPONSIBILITY OF THE LAWYER.
I THINK IT WOULD ALSO PLACE A
RESPONSIBILITY ON THOSE WHO
CHOOSE TO BE PROFESSIONAL
PARALEGALS!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PARALEGALS.
THE UNDERLYING PROBLEM IS
THIS.
THAT THE TERM "PARALEGAL" AND
"ILLEGAL ASSISTANT -- AND
LEGAL ASSISTANT" IS NOT
DEFINED IN ANY MEANINGFUL WAY,
NOW FOR SOMETIME NOW,
PRACTICING LAWYERS HAVE FOUND,
A WAY TO INCREASE THEIR INCOME
STREAM, WHICH IS TO TAKE WHAT
USED TO BE CALLED SEKTS OR
CLERKS, SECRETARY$$!!!!IES OR CLERKS,
AND TO GIVE THEM THE TITLE OF
PAR LEGAL OR PEEL ASSISTANT,
NOW WHAT THIS PROPOSAL WOULD
DO -- WOULD GIVE A STAMP I
HAVE APPROVAL TO THAT, AS A
PRACTICING LAWYER I'M
SYMPATHETIC TO THAT.
AS SOMEBODY IN PRIVATE
PRACTICE, I'M ALL FOR
INCREASING THE INCOME STREAM
OF LAWYERS, LEGITIMATELY, BUT
THE LAWYERS SHOULD NOT BE ABLE
TO DO THAT BY PLAYING UPON THE
CONFUSION OF THE PUBLIC THAT
IS CONSUMING LEGAL SERVICES,
WITH REGARD TO WHO IS A
PARALEGAL AND WHO ISN'T.
>> SO SO THIS REALLY THE
PROTECTION OF THE PUBLIC AND
MAYBE THAT WAS I THINK, THE
WAY JUSTICE WELLS EXPRESSED IT
WAS -- I THINK, PERFECTLY
ECHOS MY CONCERNS ABOUT WHAT A
SEPARATE REGULATION PROGRAM
MIGHT YOU KNOW, FURTHER
PROBLEMS THAT IT MIGHT CAUSE,
BUT, WE ARE NOT -- THIS ISSUE
OF HOW MUCH IS BEING CHARGED
IS REALLY SORT OF THE UNDER!!$$!!!!!!!!
UNDERLYING UNDISCUSSED!!$$!! ISSUE,
WHICH IS.
>> THAT IS THE ELEPHANT IN THE
ROOM, YES.
>> SO LET'S TALK BUT IT'S
WHICH IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING
EVEN IN THE PREAMBLE IT SAYS
THIS THIS HAS NOTHING DO WITH
WHAT LAWYERS CAN CHARGE.
SO THEORETICALLY, A LAWYER,
BILLING, WHEREVER THEY ARE
THEY SAY I'M BILLING FOR
PARALEGAL HOURS, AND THEY ARE
BILLING THE SAME AMOUNT, AS
SOMEBODY WHO IS NOW A FLORIDA
REGISTERED PARALEGAL; CORRECT?
>> CORRECT.
>> BUT THE IDEA, I GUESS IS
THE FIRST TIER IS TO START I
TO ASSUME INFORM THE PUBLIC
THAT SOME HON WHO O HOLDS THAT
TITLE WILL BE ABLE TO FOR THE $$
LAWYER'S PURPOSES COMMAND MORE
OF AN HOURLY RATE, AND IS THAT
ALSO GOING TO BE SOMETHING
THAT WOULD YOU KNOW, FOR
ISSUES OF WHERE -- ARE
ATTORNEYS!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ATTORNEYS' FEES CAN YOU GET
MONEY FOR PARALEGAL THROUGH
WHEN YOU GET ATTORNEY FEES.
>> I THINK FREQUENTLY THEY ARE
COLLECTIBLE!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
COLLECTIBLE.
>> AND THEY ARE SAYING THAT
THAT ALSO WOULD MATTER IF THE
-- PERSON IS A FLORIDA
REGISTERED PARALEGAL, OR A
REGULAR PARALEGAL --
>> RIGHT, WHICH, WOULD IN
EFFECT FURTHER COMPLICATE AND
CONFUSE THE ISSUE THAT WE
SHOULD BE ATTEMPTING TO
CLARIFY!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!
CLARIFY.
I DON'T THINK THAT THERE IS
ANYTHING WRONG --
>> WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE $$
BAR'S ARGUMENT THAT THIS IS A
VERY CONSTRUCTIVE FIRST STEP?
THAT IS, THAT TAKING THIS STEP
WHERE REALLY THERE IS
VOLUNTARY REGULATION, MUCH
LIKE WE HAVE, VOLUNTARY
SPECIALIZATION IN THE BAR,
WITH THE CERTIFICATION
PROGRAM, AND MANY OTHER YOU
KNOW VOLUNTARY PROGRAMS, THAT
THEN HAVE REGULATION, ALBEIT
THE ENTRANCE INTO IT, SO WHAT
IS WRONG WITH TAKING A BABY
STEP FIRST ASSUMING AND YOU
ARE -- WHAT YOU ARE ADVOCATE$$!!!!ING!!$$!!!!!!
ADVOCATING, FULL AUTHORITATIVE
REGULATION HERE, BUT WHAT IS
WRONG WITH HAVING THIS AS A
FIRST STEP, AND THAT WOULD
MOVE US IN THAT DIRECTION, AND
THEN GAINING THE BENEFIT AND
THE EXPERIENCE OF SEEING HOW
THIS GOES, BEFORE TAKING THE
FULL STEP OF SOME KIND OF
MANDATORY REGULATION BEFORE
SOMEBODY CAN PERFORM CERTAIN
DUTIES FOR A LAWYER?
WHAT IT IS WRONG WITH THAT
ARGUMENT THAT IT IS A GOOD
FIRST STEP?
>> I THINK THAT THERE ARE A
COUPLE OF PROBLEMS WITH THE
ARGUMENT THAT IT IS A FIRST
STEP.
IF IT WEREN'T SIMPLY A FIRST
STEP -- MY CLIENTS MIGHT WELL
BE IN FAVOR OF IT.
THE PROBLEM IS THAT THIS WILL
NOT BE A FIRST STEP.
IT WILL BE A MOVE BACKWARDS.
FOR A COUPLE OF REASONS.
FIRST OF ALL, THE PARALEGAL
SYSTEM!!$$!!!!!!!!!!
SYSTEM, THE TIER TWO PARALEGAL
SYSTEM IMPOSES MANY DUTIES
UPON PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BE
PROFESSIONAL PARALEGALS, BUT
GIVES THEM NO BENEFITS.
NO BENEFIT WHATSOEVER.
SO ASSUMING THAT THE
PARALEGALS ARE RATIONAL
ECONOMIC BEING AORS,"ACTORS I
THINK WHAT WOULD HAPPEN OUT OF
PROFESSIONAL PRIDE WE WOULD
HAVE SOME JOIN TO BEGIN WITH,
BUT THAT -- NUMBER WOULD
RAPIDLY RAPIDLY DECLINE.
BECAUSE THEY ARE BELIEVE TOING
BENEFITS.
>> WHY WOULD NO THEY NOT
RECEIVE BENEFIT IT SEEMS TO ME
WE ARE TALKING ABOUT
REGISTRATION!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
REGISTRATION, AND, THAT I AM
SUBMIT MOOILGZ VOLUNTARY, TO A
SYSTEM OF REGISTRATION, AND IF
I DON'T FOLLOW WHAT THE
REQUIREMENTS ARE, THEN THERE
MAY BE SOME CONSEQUENCES,
WOULD THAT NOT BE A BENEFIT
THAT HOLD ONESELF OUT I'M HELD
ACCOUNTABLE SO THERE YOU DON'T
PERCEIVE THAT AS A BENEFIT OF
THE BAR PROPOSAL THEN?
>> IT IS ALL RESPONSIBILITY
BUT NO BENEFIT, IT DOES NOT --
>> THE BENEFIT IS TO THE
PUBLIC YOU ARE SAYING THAT I
AM RESPONSIBLE I'M 4E8DOE HELD
ACCOUNTABLE BECAUSE OF THAT
YOU DON'T SEE THAT AS A
BENEFIT TO THE PERSON, WHO
TOLDO HOLD THEMSELVES OUT TO
THE PUBLIC THOUGH.
>> IT WOULD BE A BENEFIT, TO
THE PUBLIC, BUT IT WOULD BE A
BENEFIT TO THE PUBLIC ONLY IF
IT WERE A MANDATORY SYSTEM,
WHERE THE PUBLIC COULD
UNDERSTAND WHAT A PARALEGAL
IS.
NOW, WHAT THE $$BAR'S PROPOSAL
WERE LAYING ON TOP OF THE
CONFUSION WE HAVE NOW, AN
EXTRA CONFUSION AS TO WHAT IS
THE TIER ONE, AND A TIER TWO,
PARALEGAL!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PARALEGAL.
I THINK IT IS ONLY MATTER OF
TIME IF THIS PROPOSAL WERE
ADOPT!!$$!!!!!!!!
ADOPTED, UNTIL WE HAVE
LAWYERS, THAT ARE IN -- FEE
DISPUTES!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DISPUTES, OR GRIEVANCES ABOUT
THE ADEQUACY OF THE LEGAL
REPRESENTATION WHERE SOME
LAWYER WILL BE IN A DISPUTE
WITH A CLIENT AND THE CLIENT
WILL ARGUE THAT WELL YOU TOLD
ME THAT WE HAD A PARALEGAL
WORK ON THIS, WHO WAS A TIER
ONE PARALEGAL.
WHEN IN FACT, TIER ONE
PARALEGAL MEANS NOTHING IF IT
-- TIER TWO PARALEGAL, THAT IS
RESPONSIBLE FOR MAINTAINING
THE TYPE OF CERTIFICATION.
>> THIS IS THE BENEFIT ALSO TO
THE -- THE LAWYER WHO WANTS
SOME PROFESSIONAL WORKING WITH
HIM OR HER, NOW, KNOWS, THAT
THEY CAN ASK FOR AND THEN OF
COURSE!!$$!!!!!!!!!!
COURSE, THE PERSON WILL THEN
DEMAND A HIGHER SALARY, TO
HAVE A PERSON WHO IS AE
REGISTERED PARALEGAL, IT HELPS
IT WOULD SEEM IN THE LEGAL
PROFESSION!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PROFESSION, IN DECIDING, WHO
IS GOING TO BE HIRED, OR NOT.
IT MAY HELP THE COURTS, IN
TERMS OF DECIDING WHETHER WHAT
IS A REASONABLE FEE FOR THAT
PERSON WHO IS A NONLAWYER, TO
BE ABLE TO SAY WELL I KNOW
THAT THAT IS LEVEL, AND -- SO
SHORT OF THE FULL YOU KNOW,
EVERYBODY BEING REGISTERED, IT
SEEMS THAT THERE IS SOME
BENEFIT TO HAVING AT LEAST
THIS STEP, NOW AND BUT YOU ARE
SAYING, WOULD YOU RATHER HAVE
NO STEP IT IS EITHER ALL OR
NOTHING -- I JUST WANT TO MAKE
SURE WE ARE --
>> YOUR HONOR, I AGREE WITH
THE FIRST PART OF WHAT YOU
SAID.
THAT THERE IS THAT BENEFIT
WITH REGARD TO THE TIER TWO
PROFESSIONALIZED PARALEGALS,
WHAT I HAVE NOT HEARD AND
EXAMINED VERY CLOSELY ALL OF
THE $$BAR'S SUBMISSION ON US
EVERY ISSUE, NOT ONE
LEGITIMATE REASON NOT ONE
POLICY THAT WOULD BE ADVANCED
BY HAVING THIS TIER ONE
UNDEFINED PERMANENT PAR
ILLEGALS!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ILLEGALS -- PARALEGALS I THINK
THERE IS A NOTHING ANOTHER
REASON THIS WOULD NOT SIMPLY
BE A FIRST STEP RIGHT NOW I
THINK WE ALL UNDERSTAND THERE
IS SOME REALLY QUESTION ABOUT
-- SOME REAL QUESTION ABOUT
LAWYERS BILLING FOR TIME FOR
INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE CALLED
PARALEGALS BUT ARE NOT SUBJECT
TO ANY MEANINGFUL DEFINITION
NOT SUBJECT TO ANY
REQUIREMENTS AS TO THEIR
BACKGROUND!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BACKGROUND.
>> I'M HEARING -- HAVING
DIFFICULTY WITH YOUR RESPONSE
ABOUT THIS FIRST STEP
ARGUMENT, BECAUSE, I SEE A
CLEAR DIFFERENCE.
HOW MANY PARALEGALS YOU DO
BELIEVE ARE OUT THERE?
>> LET'S SAY THERE ARE 75,000
LAWYERS IN THE STATE.
WHAT WOULD BE THE MULTIPLE OF
THAT?
WOULD IT BE TWO?
WOULD IT BE THREE?
CLEARLY, IT WOULD BE MORE THAN
THE 75,000, WOULDN'T IT.
>> THE NUMBER OF PARALEGALS,
IN THIS STATE?
>> YES.
>> I BELIEVE, WELL.
>> LET'S JUST TALK ABOUT
LAWYERS, THAT HAVE SOMEBODY,
WORKING FOR THEM, THAT IS NOT
A LAWYER.
AND YET, DO QUASI LAWYER YOU
KNOW, LAWYERING TYPE WORK, IT
IS -- SO IF YOU TAKE THE FULL
STEP RIGHT NOW, WHAT YOU ARE
TAKE -- TALKING ABOUT IS THE
BAR IN ADDITION, TO HAVING
THIS ENORMOUS AND SOMETHING
THAT THEY ARE VERY PROUD OF
DISCIPLINARY PROGRAM, FOR THE
75,000 LAWYERS, THAT THEY
HAVE, OF NOW,99REALLY HAVING
SOMETHING THAT COULD EASILY
SWALLOW UP, IN COMPARISON, THE
LAWYERS, BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY,
THEY ARE A LOT MORE PARALEGALS
A LOT MORE PEOPLE THAT ARE
STUTTERING THE LAWYERS, THAN
THERE ARE YOU KNOW, JUST THE
LAWYERS SO YOU ARE TALKING
ABOUT AN ENORMOUS AN ENORMOUS
PROGRAM IF YOU IF YOU JUST
JUMP RIGHT INTO THAT, YOU KNOW
FROM THE OUTSET.
SO I'M HAVING DIFFICULTY,ING
YOU SAYING THAT THERE IS NO
BENEFIT IN FIRST DOING THIS ON
A VOLUNTARY BASIS, WHERE
PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO SUBMIT
THEMSELVES TO VERY HIGH
STANDARDS!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
STANDARDS, IN ORDER TO HAVE
THIS CERTIFICATION.
HELP ME HELP ME WITH THAT,
COMPARISON OF THIS ALL OR
NOTHING THAT ALL -- ALL OF THE
SUDDEN WE ARE GOING TO HAVE
SOMETHING THAT MAKES
REGULATION OF THE LAWYERS LOOK
LIKE A -- A TINY EFFORT.
>> I WILL, YOUR HONOR, IN TWO
I WAS, FIRST OF ALL -- WAYS.
FIRST OF ALL MY CLIENTS --
WERE NOT TO BE REGULATED BY
THE BAR -- WHAT WE ARE
PROPOSING WHAT WE WISH TO HIS
THAT THIS COURT ASSIGN A
STANDING COMMITTEE TO STUDY
THIS ISSUE.
AND COME UP WITH A MEANINGFUL
PROPOSAL INCLUDING MANDATORY
REQUIREMENTS FOR PARALEGALS.
>> TO BE ADMINISTERED BY WHOM
IN.
>> I BELIEVE A COMMITTEE
SHOULD STUDY THE ISSUE, AND
MAKE APPROPRIATE
RECOMMENDATION!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
RECOMMENDATIONS.
I DON'T BELIEVE THAT IT IS THE
BAR CORRECTLY -- I THINK THAT
A SIMILAR UNDERTAKING HAS BEEN
DONE BY THE COURT WITH REGARD
TO COURT MEDIATORS.
AND IT IS THE SAME ISSUE WITH
RIDER TO JURISDICTION THAT WE
HAVE ENABLING LEGISLATION,
THAT CONFERS JURISDICTION AND
REMOVES ANY QUESTION WITH
REGARD TO JURISDICTION, AS TO
MEDIATORS!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MEDIATORS, AND, THIS COURT
SEPARATE AND APART FROM THE
PAR -- BAR, HAS ASSIGNED A
STANDING COMMITTEE TO STUDY
THAT ISSUE.
>> WITH OUR HELP OF YOU
EXHAUSTED YOUR TIME IF YOU
BRING YOUR REMARKS TO
CONCLUSION, PLEASE.
>> SURE.
>> I WANTED TO -- FINISH UP
WITH --
>> PLEASE DO.
>> -- ANSWER THAT JUSTICE
ANSTEAD -- WE WOULD HAVE THE
SAME PROBLEM, YOUR HONOR, IF
ALL OF THE QUALIFIED
PARALEGALS VOLUNTARILY JOINED
IN TERMS OF WHAT THE BURDEN
WOULD BE, I THINK AND THE LONG
RUN, THAT THIS COURT HAS THE
OPPORTUNITY$$!!!!IP TO TAKE THE LEAD
IN THIS ISSUE, REGULATION OF
THE PARALEGAL SERVICES,IS THE
WAVE OF THE FUTURE, INSTEAD OF
AN -- ENACTING A PROPOSAL THAT
WOULD TAKE US A STEP BACKWARD
BY UNDERTAKING ITSELF WE CAN
TAKE A STEP FORWARD.
>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, REBUT!!$$!!!!!!!!
REBUTTAL?
>>!!$$!!
>>.
>> MAY IT PLEASE THE COURT.
YOUR HONORS WE DON'T NEED
ANOTHER COMMITTEE, WE HAVE HAD
A COMMITTEE, COMPOSED OF
LAWYERS, PARALEGALS, PARALEGAL
EDUCATORS REPRESENTATIVES THE
VOLUNTARIES VARIOUS SECTIONSES
OF THE BAR WE HAVE STUDDED
THIS A YEAR AND HALF TO TWO
YEARS WE HAVE HAD PUBLIC
COMMENT, WE HAVE PROPOSED THE
RULE YOU PUBLISHED THE RULE OF
THE FLORIDA BAR NEWS, I THINK
THE RULE IS READY TO BE
REACHED!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!
REACHED.
ALSO I WOULD LIKE TO ADDRESS
THE ALLEGATION THAT THE BAR
DOES NOT INTEND TO WIN THIS
FIGHT.
TO THE EXTENT THAT IT IS A
FIGHT.
WE BOTH AGREE THERE SHOULD BE
SOME REGULATION.
THE INTENT CERTAINLY IS TO WIN
THIS, BECAUSE WE THINK THIS A
POSITIVE FIRST STEP IN TERMS
OF RECOGNIZE$$!!!!ING THE
PROFESSIONALISM OF PARALEGALS
OUT THERE, AND, RAISING THE
QUALITY OF PRACTICE OF LAW, AT
THE BAR.
BECAUSE FOR A LAWYER, WHAT THE
LAWYER CAN DO WHEN IS HE WITH
A TIER WON PARALLEL ENCOURAGE
THAT PARALEGAL TO BECOME TIER
TWO GET THE EDUCATION TRAINING
GET CONTINUING EDUCATION TO
THE QUALITY OF THE LAW
PRACTICE TO ALL FLORIDIANS, IS
IMPROVED!!$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IMPROVED.
>> IS IT THE $$BAR'S
REPRESENTATION TO THE COURT,
THAT THIS IS TRULY A FIRST
STEP, IN THE MOVING FORWARD TO
MANDATORY REGULATION TESTING
WHAT!!$$!!!!!!
WHATEVER?
>> WELL, IF -- IF 200
PARALEGALS SIGN UP OUT OF WHAT
WE UNDERSTAND ARE 16,000
ACCORDING TO THE DEPARTMENT OF
LABOR 16,000 PARALEGALS THE
STATE OF FLORIDA, IF 200 SHOW
UP, THEN THAT IS PROBABLY THE
END OF IT.
BUT MY UNDERSTANDING FROM BAR
STAFF THAT IS THEIR PHONES ARE
RINGING OFF THE HOOKS FROM PAR
PARALEGALS ALL OVER THE STATE
WANTING TO PAY REGISTRATION
WANTED TO GET REGISTERED SO --
>> SO THEN THE ANSWER TO MY
QUESTION IS --
>> TRULY A FIRST STEP.
>> WITH OUR HELP WE HAVE USED
UP YOUR TIME WE THANK YOU ALL
FOR YOUR HELP IN ANALYZING
THIS MATTER, THANK YOU FOR
YOUR BRIEFS AND WE WILL TAKE
IT UNDER CONSIDERATION, THANK
YOU.!!$$!!!!!!
YOU.